What’s on Dec? | Episode 14 | Flood: An Indigenous perspective

Indigenous communities in Canada are disproportionately affected by flood risk. Federal government statistics show that about 10% of Canadians live in high-risk flood zones, but the inverse is true for First Nations people — 90% live in high-risk flood areas. 

In our latest podcast, Tyrone McNeil, president & tribal chief with the Sto:lo Tribal Council in British Columbia, discusses what can be done to ensure First Nations people get the insurance coverage they need. 

He also shares his thoughts on the upcoming national flood insurance program and how it can work for Indigenous people. Tyrone will further discuss resilience efforts within Indigenous communities and how traditional insurance could change to help these communities. 

Audio transcript

Intro: You’re listening to What’s On Dec? the Canadian Underwriter podcast, focusing on the hottest topics in the P&C community, featuring insights, analysis, and interviews with subject matter experts throughout the year.

Pete Tessier:

Hey, everyone. Welcome to another edition of What’s On Dec? the Canadian Underwriter podcast. I’m Pete Tessier here with Curt Wyatt. And we’re from the insurancepodcast.com. Look us up.

And we’re going to have a really interesting conversation today with Tyrone McNeil, who is the president and tribal chief of the Stó:lō First Nation in Agassiz, B.C. He was a recent speaker/presenter at the CatIQ Conference in Toronto about a month and a half ago. And he really informed the audience there a lot about how First Nations are a little overlooked in the insurance cycle of coverage, but also the perils they face and why it’s actually probably really good for business to get involved with First Nations given some of the Cat perils they face, like fire and flood.

So Curt, this is an interesting process and we often overlook First Nations. How do you think we’re going to deal with some of this?

Curt Wyatt:

Well, Tyrone points this out in the interview in that it comes down to communication and getting out and getting the message out. And having attended the CatIQ event with Tyrone, he does a great job of that. And getting people to champion the message is the start to bringing awareness to an industry that has a long history in Canada, but obviously, needs to mature in many ways, and Tyrone points that out to us.

Pete Tessier:

Yeah, he says some really interesting things that are particularly are relevant historically. And what’s the cliche phrase? If you don’t understand history, you’re doomed to repeat it. And I think it’s very important to acknowledge some of the reasons why we’re in the situation we are with First Nations because of what happened in the past, and we don’t want to repeat those things.

And I think Tyrone, without saying it, really suggests that there is some repetition going on from things in the past. And the history is very important. He touches on some other things that are very interesting as well that we didn’t really think about and how there might be some very interesting opportunity for outside interest such as insurance to backstop some very important industrial and development opportunities with First Nations. And as we see, it’s happening across the country. First Nations are developing lands, they’re building things that are needed in society as a whole, not just their own cultures. And insurance is going to have to play a big role in this.

Curt Wyatt:

Definitely, Pete. So, hey, without waiting any further, let’s jump to Tyrone. And you guys enjoy the message and take something from it. And next time you’re talking to your insurer, make a point of saying something as far as what you have heard and your thoughts towards how Canada as a country needs to be treating each other when it comes to insurance.

Pete Tessier:

So now we’re joined by Tyrone McNeil, who’s the president and tribal chief for the Sto:lo First Nation in Agassiz, BC. Tyrone, thanks for joining us. We first sort of crossed paths when Curt and the other people at Canadian Underwriter saw you at the CatIQ conference this past month or so ago. And wanted to touch base a little bit about some of the pressing issues when it comes to Cat climate and everything that affects First Nations in Canada. So when you were there, you had mentioned during the conference that Indigenous communities in Canada are sort of disproportionately affected by flood risk and 90% of First Nations people living in high-risk, flood areas. What can be done to make sure they get the coverage they need?

Tyrone McNeil:

Yeah, big time, I’d say, Pete. A lot of it I think centers and starts with a higher degree of cultural competency, cultural awareness, that leads to cultural intelligence. Just the nature of First Nations relation with Canada, we tend to be an invisible people by the public, by people like insurers and whatnot. So we spend a lot of time educating folks, “Hey, we’ve been here for thousands of years. We didn’t come over on a boat in the last couple of hundred years.” And people still do think that, Pete. So a lot of it is educational. And for insurers, just come to a deeper understanding and say, in British Columbia, there’s 35 distinct First Nation people.

And by distinct, I say different language, different culture, different ceremony, different tradition. It’s like two different countries, and contact came along and they created this thing called the Indian Act, which really separated from a sense of nationhood and tribalness and basically having us work as individual communities in a dependency society with the federal government.

We want to thrive. We want to get away from this dependency. And right now, just the way the system is designed within Indian Affairs, Indigenous Services Canada and CMHC, for example, on housing, we’re dependent on subsidies, dependent on low-income loans because our incomes aren’t there.

We want to improve our incomes. We want to be self-sufficient and pay for ourselves. In my individual case, I built my own house. I come from a construction background, so I built my own house. First thing I did the day I moved in was insure it, but a lot of our members, they’re not that fortunate.

So I think that for a lot of people within insurance, they’re going to probably see us maybe 30, 40 years ago where we’re entirely dependent on federal government, on handouts, on subsidies and whatnot. And a lot of us now are still a little bit invisible in a society when we’re gainfully employed.

So I think there’s opportunities, to come back to your question, Pete, to educate insurers that our worldview of the current state we’re in, our worldview of the state we want to morph into, to transition into, with a deep understanding that a lot of the early makeup of Canada put us in this situation. When the National Risk Profile states that 90% of First Nations in Canada live in high-risk flood areas and 9% of Canadians do, that’s because at contact, we’re just about entirely reliant on the river for transportation, for food.

For my people here, Pete, in Sto:lo, in southwest B.C., the tributaries such as the Chilliwack River, the Chalice River, they’ve got reserves maybe next to them because they’re our highways and our fridge at the same time. So if you go back 150 years with climate being much more steadily, that wasn’t much of an issue. We might’ve got a little bit wet occasionally, but not hugely wet.

But now, with climate change happening, we simply don’t have our own resources to put up dikes or even elevate. In my community here, Pete, we don’t have a dike, we have a river road, we call it, and the road is built to the 20-year flood level. That’s all we have. So we want to armour the bank, we want to protect our lands a bit more, but not only for the sake of protecting it, but we want to, to come back to my comment on being self-sufficient, we’ve got economic opportunities within the reserves, Pete, that they’re prime property for commercial development, industrial development, so we can actually generate our own source of revenue.

I think that’s a really important message to pass across the individuals with insurance companies is that the dependency you may see a little bit too much up right now is not what we ask for. We’re demanding that we have opportunities to be self-sufficient. And if you think about developing on reserves, Pete, if we put up a $2 million building, we want insurance policies to cover it and protect it, right? Same for all of our houses and whatnot too. So I’d call it wanting to thrive in Canadian society as First Nations people throughout the country.

Pete Tessier:

Tyrone, getting back to something you said in that incredibly detailed answer. You’ve talked about where historically a lot of First Nations reserves were and where settlements were long before, I believe the term you used was contact or connection. And in those cases, climate has obviously changed, but has the relationship then put First Nations behind, I guess, further back?

Because the attention to dealing with where those settlements are and where those historical areas are hasn’t been kept up in sort a promise of, “This is your land, but we’re not going to help do anything for it.” But society at large is affecting the outcomes of the land and therefore increasing those perils like flood.

And given that where you described the Sto:lo nation and a lot of the other nations in your area, you had an atmospheric river come through, and obviously, if you can’t insure the buildings, you’re taking the brunt of the loss. How is that sort of perceived within the community? And have you been able to make inroads to get that message out that it’s a double whammy for First Nations?

Tyrone McNeil:

First of all, just in terms of our historic relation with the Canadian society at large, with provincial governments, federal governments, local governments, I think we accept things that a lot of people wouldn’t accept, Pete. Like the scenario you just described, that’s normal for us, completely abnormal for others, but it’s normal for us. So too often, it is just accepted just the way it is.

And people like me are trying to change that paradigm where we want certain standards for ourselves. We’re going to hold ourselves to high standards, and we expect high standards in terms of support and other initiatives from others, whether they be Canadian, society at large or various forms of governments.

So to push back here, in the scenario that you described, I’m really promoting any initiative that speaks to resilience because we know that in order to respond most effectively to the major catastrophes, resilience beats protection, hands down. You build a dike, it’s going to be washed out in an atmospheric river event.

So in the Fraser Valley, there’s 1,500 kilometers of historic fish-bearing streams that are trapped by railways, dikes and roads. So to get away from what happened to us in November 2021, we had to open up a whole bunch of those so that when the next pluvial event happens, that surface water can actually drain into the Fraser because that’s what it needs to do, it needs to get off the mountains, get off the flatlands and flow into the Fraser and down and out. And some of that is through our reserve communities, majority of it isn’t, but everybody’s going to benefit, not only us as First Nations that are landlocked on reserves, but local governments, regional districts, British Columbia citizens living in the Fraser Valley, they’re going to benefit too.

Curt Wyatt:

Yeah. And Tyrone, it’s Curt here. I had the chance of hearing your message and getting a better chance to understand these topics at the CatIQ event. So it’s a real pleasure here getting you on What’s On Dec?

And knowing that what you’ve said about trying getting better after these events, because they are going to happen, there is national flood insurance program that’s going to be coming into place. And the federal government has made this statement that it’s going to be something that’s going to help everyone. How do you feel though that this program would work and help for you and your challenges as you described? Because they are unique in nature in the sense that the proximity to these events is greater than the average Canadian and such that, will the program do what it’s supposed to do, do you feel, as far as when you look at it?

Tyrone McNeil:

Firstly, I think it’s a demonstration of leadership if the federal government comes up with a national insurance program. I like that idea, Curt. The intention is well and good.

The relation between First Nations and the federal government is one such that, in my mind, Curt, it makes sense that there be a national insurance program come out that, ideally, it’ll be applied to B.C. region the way we want it applied to B.C. region as opposed to Alberta, Saskatchewan or others that have a national program, but have it flexible enough to meet our regional needs. One of the struggles we’re going to have into drawing that down and putting in their place comes back to the Indian Act again. We’re just about, I would say, prevented, but in too many ways, encouraged not to work as collectives, but it makes sense that we come together as a collective. There’s 204 communities in B..C, about 120,000, 125,000 First Nations on reserve in B.C. And if you put that kind of policy together with those kind of numbers, you should make it pretty reasonable for us, right?

Curt Wyatt:

Right. And in addition to that and the flood exposure that those buildings could potentially receive, there’s also like you’ve talked a lot about this, is that these assets are building and they’re growing in value and these numbers are getting larger and larger with inflation and everything else that’s affecting the greater property community and such that there’s insurance needed. I mean, there’s insurance beyond just the flood insurance.

And how do you feel that the insurance companies could be looking at this and saying that, “Look, we realize that these assets need to be protected. We’ve got the fire potential within a lot of these areas in addition to flood?” What’s been sort of the message you’ve tried to get across to the insurance industry about the fact that you’re working hard, you’re building these assets and you want to protect them for future generations?

Tyrone McNeil:

I think one of the biggest pieces for me, Curt, is getting the attention of insurers. Coming back, we tend to be pretty invisible in Canada. And for market size, we’re probably pretty small to catch much attention. So I’d really encourage insurers to look at it either in the aspects of reconciliation or the aspects of the social side of ESG, where we might be pretty…Take the 204 First Nations in the B.C., in my view, we’re pretty large in numbers, but we’re scattered all over the province, 204 communities, probably just about 450 different reserves to build on. So quite a geographic jungle.

So value-wise, it may not make the cleanest sense to engage us like that, but if you look at it from a social aspect of ESG that you want to do things differently, you want to behave differently, you may even feel compelled to play a role in reconciling the relation between First Nations and Canadian society at large. So you may not make the profit margins you would with a much larger population all lumped into, say, one city or even the Fraser Valley here because you’re spread out all over the province. But in the end, it’s worth it because not only are we better protected through insurance, you do have more policies throughout B.C. and Canada, if you’re looking at the national policy, and build out from there.

And I’m really confident, Curt, the more that the insurers get to know us, they’re more aware of us, not only in terms of what our current assets are, we’re at the earliest stages of development here. We have a large land base here in the Fraser Valley that’s really well located for commercial, for industrial, all kinds of developments. So we want to elevate the value of our lands, whether we’re building them ourselves for our purposes, or we’re leasing them out to others to come into our communities and do business, hire our people, generate revenue for us.

In order to attract business, we need to be in a position that we’re insurable because nobody’s going to come on reserve and spend millions of dollars on construction and assets, and then, scratch your head, “What do we do if there’s an event?” It’s not good business, right? We will be as resilient as possible, but should an event arise, we’ve got a big brother, or big sister standing behind us, they’re ready to help us out in time of need.

Pete Tessier:

Tyrone, with many First Nations, particularly in B.C., taking some incredible development projects on as we see in Vancouver now with the Squamish First Nation, alongside the Broad Street Bridge and then the former army lands in Jericho and such. What do you think the traditional insurance could do to help support more of that happening for other First Nations, such as Sto:lo and where can that go? What can they do to help sort of move the needle forward so that you have that backing and security like every business and homeowner wants when they embark on a project or a lifestyle?

Tyrone McNeil:

Cultural competency would go a long way to that end, Pete. And for companies that really engage, we want to continue developing relations with them to go from cultural competency to cultural intelligence to cultural integrity so that you, as a business unit working in Canada, you’ve increased your cultural competency. So when you see the indifference bias and racism by other sectors, you can help us call them out on it because you take the developments around Vancouver by scale to Musqueam and Squamish.

And there’s a lot of racism, public racism involved just because the First Nations are doing it. If it were the City of Vancouver or developers doing it, there’d probably be cries in the media about development. But here, it’s, “Why are these First Nations building here? What gives them the right?” Just basic racist stuff.

So if we could work together to eliminate that ignorance, that indifference and bias, that’ll really open up the doors for more opportunities like that. Because a lot of our communities up the valley from those three communities in Vancouver, they’re learning from those three communities. They say, “Hey, we can’t get anything by ourselves, but if we come together with three, four, five other communities, we can do similar.” And you’re going to see more models like that, Pete, because it’s a successful model.

And I like it, in particular because it gets us out from Indian Act. The Indian Act prevents us from working with our neighbors who are literally our aunties and uncles in the community across the river, down the road. So now, it’s an opportunity to set that Indian Act aside and recognize we’re family, recognize that we benefit everybody, not only us, but the public as well, by working more collaboratively together. Because look at how many living units that the three host communities are going to be developing in Vancouver. A lot of commercial space, retail space, they’re developing down there for everybody’s benefit, not just First Nations.

Pete Tessier:

Tyrone, I want to thank you for joining us here and sort of explaining some of the underlying issues that, obviously, are not really well thought about, and sharing what you presented and talked about at CatIQ, but also bringing it forward to What’s On Dec? and the Canadian Underwriter audience. Been very informative. And I think you’ve outlined some very key points that the industry at large and all the participants and sort of stakeholders in it aren’t really thinking about. Would love to chat more with you in the future, but thank you very much and best of luck with the projects and the Sto:lo First Nation.

Tyrone McNeil:

Thanks so much for having me.

Pete Tessier:

Okay, Curt, that went to some places I didn’t quite expect to go. And I think the big one was Tyrone bringing in ESG, environmental social governance, and the importance that has within the insurance industry as it takes a bigger seat at the table of considerations.

Curt Wyatt:

Tyrone’s speaking from experience here, you heard it in the interview. He’s worked in various industries. He’s himself had to carry insurance for construction, the likes of his own projects. And so now, to have him dive into this topic and bring forward the idea that the industry needs to continue to find ways to think outside the box, and ESG was brought forward in society as a way to get us to think outside the box instead of staying in this place and saying, “This is the way we do things, let’s just ignore everything around us.” We wrote an ESG principles and policies so that we start to realize that there’s more to this.

So Tyrone’s point is that. It’s let’s just start to realize that within the framework of industry, within the framework of insurance and as respect to the development of communities, it’s a must.

Pete Tessier:

Yeah, it’s a vital aspect. And what we do know is that environmental social governance is becoming a reality in the underwriting and consideration of risk process. And it’s not being driven just by your insurance company or their policies, it’s being driven where the top dollar money is, the true smart money, and that is reinsurance. They have a vested interest because eventually, these losses, these Cat losses, these climate change losses affect reinsurance, and they don’t want to deal with them in the way they have been. They’re getting hammered. There’s a lot of money sitting on the sidelines right now, as we both know, and we need that money to come back in. And it’s important for the industry to consider these things.

I think the other thing, Curt, and Tyrone hit on this, is there’s an amazing opportunity for business and development because of working with First Nations and understanding where those opportunities are. And they want a backstop just like any other entrepreneur.

Curt Wyatt:

Pete, not just a backstop, but also the fact that we’ve got this, and I like what you said there, sort of this challenge of the reinsurers getting hit hard, but we’ve got to come to the awareness that we’re building at standards that we never looked at before.

Pete Tessier:

Yes.

Curt Wyatt:

And we’re creating backstops for communities to make sure they’re not adversely affected by forest fire or by water events. And that’s where the industry needs to go. It needs to look forward and say, “Maybe these areas couldn’t have been insured in the past, but what have we done today to make them insurable?” And if those steps are being taken, then let’s wake up and take that message internationally to all the big insurers, reinsurers, capacity providers, and say, “This stuff can change. We can be smart about the way we build and construct. And here’s how we fix the problem.”

Pete Tessier:

Yeah. I couldn’t say it any better myself, Curt. So thanks again everyone for listening to another episode of What’s On Dec? and we’ll see you next month.

Outro: Thanks for listening to What’s On Dec? the Canadian Underwriter podcast.